CalTech University today hosted a debate on what are arguably two of the most important questions in the culture wars today — Is Religion a Force for Good or Evil? and Can you be Good without God? — the conservative Christian author and cultural scholar Dinesh D’Souza and the libertarian skeptic writer and social scientist Michael Shermer, squared off to resolve these and related issues, such as the relationship between science and religion and the nature and existence of God. This event was one of the liveliest ever hosted by the Skeptics Society at Caltech, mixing science, religion, politics, and culture. The debate was co-sponsored by Athens and Jerusalem, a website dedicated to the debate on reason and revelation.
Tyson and I attended this debate at CalTech today. It was very interesting. I could write ad nauseam about the actual debate, but others have already done a much better job than I could. Tyson went into it with a lot of clearly formed perceptions before it even began. I had seen D’Souza on The Daily Show and Bill Maher, as well as many other news talk shows several times. He is articulate and telegenic, but it was extremely clear that Shermer won this debate hands down. Both men play well to an audience:
“Winston Churchill once said, “You can always count on Americans to do the right thing – after they’ve tried everything else.” The same is true with Christians.”
“As Christopher Hitchens says about Catholic priests, it’s not “No child left behind” it’s “No child’s behind left”.
I have to give D’Souza credit for coming to one of the most esteemed technical universities in one of the most liberal enclaves in the country to defend Christianity. D’Souza actually concedes much of Darwinism, but fell quite short when discussing homosexuality in the Bible (talk to the Jews…it’s Leviticus after all) and the “power” of prayer (“Why do we pray to God to cure cancer, yet we don’t pray for amputees to grow limbs?”, Shermer asked). I took a bunch of video if anyone is interested. Most of the material can already be found on YouTubeand other sources however. Here are a few photos I took today:
I thought the ceiling was pretty
I think that says, “To Carey with best skeptical “wishes”"?? I was too embarassed to ask. LOL
One of my favorite D’Souza videos comes from Crooks & Liars. (Why do gay people love to eat maggots? LOL) It’s a clip from when he came on The Colbert Report to promote his new book, The Enemy At Home: The Cultural Left and Its Responsibility for 9/11. In that screed, D’Souza, according to Publishers Weekly’s review, “roots the blame for the 9/11 attacks in the left wing’s ‘aggressive global campaign to undermine the traditional patriarchal family‘.” D’Souza’s logical (and factual) inconsistencies are too numerous to list so have at it in the comments.
You may remember, that it was D’Souza who was the guest on Politically Incorrect shortly after 9/11. This conversation that Bill Maher had with D’Souza is what got Maher fired:
D’SOUZA: Bill, there’s another piece of political correctness I want to mention. And, although I think Bush has been doing a great job, one of the themes we hear constantly is that the people who did this are cowards.
MAHER: Not true.
D’SOUZA: Not true. Look at what they did. First of all, you have a whole bunch of guys who are willing to give their life. None of them backed out. All of them slammed themselves into pieces of concrete.
MAHER: Exactly.
D’SOUZA: These are warriors. And we have to realize that the principles of our way of life are in conflict with people in the world. And so — I mean, I’m all for understanding the sociological causes of this, but we should not blame the victim. Americans shouldn’t blame themselves because other people want to bomb them.
MAHER: But also, we should — we have been the cowards lobbing cruise missiles from 2,000 miles away. That’s cowardly. Staying in the airplane when it hits the building, say what you want about it, it’s not cowardly. You’re right.
Why do people see the Virgin Mary on cheese sandwiches or hear demonic lyrics in “Stairway to Heaven”? Using video, images and music, professional skeptic Michael Shermer explores these and other phenomena, including UFOs and alien sightings. He offers cognitive context: In the absence of sound science, incomplete information can combine with the power of suggestion (helping us hear those Satanic lyrics in Led Zeppelin). In fact, he says, humans tend to convince ourselves to believe: We overvalue the “hits” that support our beliefs, and discount the more numerous “misses.”
I read today that “GodTube“, the Christian YouTube is the fastest growing site on the net! With content like this, it’s hard to understand why. Yet, millions of people eat this crap up!
Author’s Post Script: Thanks for all the comments. This post obviously touched a nerve with some, which is always a good way to spark dialogue. I did want to make a couple of clarifications though. If you read this post carefully, I offer up very few of my own opinions. I say that I think Shermer won this particular debate. I question the popularity of the GodTube video and I point to many other people’s opinions of D’Souza, while intentionally leaving my true beliefs to myself. Also, it was not I, that took the “poke” at Catholic priests. I only included the Hitchens’ quote because I think it is hilarious. I myself, had nothing but positive experiences with all of my Catholic priests while growing up. I also would never condemn anyone’s religious beliefs, as one of my commenters “Carutherste” does. Finally, as Mr. Shermer, and indeed my friend Tyson pointed out yesterday, I believe the burden of “proof” (not that it’s necessary for those with “blind” faith), lies with the “believer” not the “know-er”. I know with 99.9999999% (give or take) accuracy, that I can’t get up from the chair I’m in right now and walk through my office wall. What science can “prove”, religion, in most cases, cannot. The reason I attended the debate yesterday was to broaden my knowledge of both sides of a divisive issue. I’m not a great debater myself, therefore I posted enough “linkage” to let the experts duke it out! Incidentally, the title of the post comes from the Shermer video I posted, as well as the GodTube video! Thanks again for adding to the discussion! Peace!–Carey
I wonder what these people would think of what Cenk Uygur wrote in the Huffington Post a while back that posits “If you are a Christian, Muslim or Jew – You are wrong”:
Right now as you read this, there are ignorant, hateful Muslims teaching other ignorant Muslims how to put on a suicide belt. There are orthodox Jews telling other Jews how they must never leave their “holy land” no matter what the consequences are to other human beings. They assure their followers — remember, they are not the chosen ones, we are. If we crush and oppress them, don’t worry, God will excuse it, and even desires it, because He is on our side.
There are maniacal Christians who are praying for the end of time. Who are hoping that most of the world’s population is wiped off the face of the Earth by their vengeful and murderous God. Whom they believe is, ironically, a loving God. Unless, of course, you make the fatal mistake of not kissing his ass and appeasing him, in which case he will slaughter you and condemn you to eternal torture. What kind of sick people believe this?
The kind who live next to you. The kind who voted for George Bush. The kind who send their religious leaders to the White House to argue against even-handedness in the Middle East because it would prevent their sick prophecy. The kind who have undue influence over how we use the greatest and most lethal army ever built by man.
If you don’t want to be called ignorant or misinformed, then get informed. Learn the real nature of our universe and put aside old wives tales about resurrected Gods, omniscient prophets and a guy who could split the Red Sea but couldn’t find where he’s going in the desert for forty years.
On the way home, Tyson and I debated the finer points of telling children that there is no Santa Claus, but that’s a blog entry for another day.
Darn Carey. You put this wonderful stuff up and my computer lacks sound for Youtube for some odd reason. I have tried all the stuff Youtube says and more can’t find a solution. Judi
OMG… there’s a GodTube? I think I just vomitted a little in my mouth. Ugh, I am so rude. Future Mr. Professional Asshole.
don’t knock God.
Thanks for your comments! BTW, the link you sent me had a lot of potential. If you applied some graduated neutral density filters to them you would have had some excellent shots indeed. I actually wouldn’t mind taking a trip there too myself.
Lastly, I’m surprised your father actually like the lighthouse shots. I thought they were OK, but I’m glad someone likes them! :D
ya! pretty ceiling~like something absorbed by the blackhole~ haha~
ryc: Thanks for such the nice comment, but I’m no where near her level of talent!
I can’t believe there’s actually such a thing as “God Tube”. That video that you posted is actually pretty good. Whoever did the photography really knew what they were doing. I think they probably coulda got someone better to play the part of the “religious man” not ready to die for his faith.
That video and plot actually remind me of a movie I’ve seen before. I just woke up and can’t remember it right now.
Oh no God Tube?? Simply blunt words it perfectly…”I think I just vomited a little in my mouth.” My feeling exactly. That looked liked such an interesting debate. I should attend debates because sitting around the house and watching the View is just making me dumber.
Random props…awesome blog entry. Sounds like a hell of a debate. I don’t always agree with Shermer, but D’Souza is a fool. A straight-up fool.
Christianity – The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own
father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and
telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove
an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a
rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical
tree… yeah, makes perfect sense
I’ve seen Hitchens debate D’Souza on TV. D’Souza lost that one, too, IMO.
haha. I can’t believe there is a GodTube.
That is pathetic.
I LOVE your blog.
And thank you for your suggestions. They were very true. I have no idea what I would do without my friends to help me through it.
Thank you very much for reading and commenting. Shows you care.
Love,
Ty
I have to say, you do a good job with your blog it is always interesting and I always enjoy the pictures. You obviously don’t believe in God and that Jesus Christ was his son. I don’t want to debate because I am not good at it but I absolutely do believe in God and Christ. I think everyone wants someone or something to believe in – what is it you believe in? I don’t know either of these men that you witnessed during their debate but it sounds to me like there was more than one fool on the stage! I grew up in a Christian family and I raise my family in a similar way. I believe that a lot of people can go overboard with a lot of different religons (not just Christians) I try hard to do what I believe is right – not just what I am told is right. I try to form my own opinion about how we should live and who I should believe in rather than doing what my parents taught me or what my friends may be doing. I would hope that everyone else could do the same and find their own answers rather than just blindly trusting in something or someone. I am glad you posted about this – I will have to check out some beliefs mentioned here. Thanks – very interesting!
ok carey, you inspired a post for me – lol – didn’t wanna have a big long winded comment here anyhow! peace, Al
Thanks for your comments, as always Blessed. I went to another talk last year by Julia Sweeney, entitled “Letting Go of God”. I would love to hear your thoughts on it. You can find it here:
I don’t think this post reveals that I don’t believe in God, but that might be inferred. I do have respect for those who believe. If it works for you, I think that’s great.
ryc: the pics were taken before the rain, that’s why it’s so smoggy. after the rain, i couldn’t believe that i could see the griffith observatory from the 10!
thanks for the words of encouragement! hope all is well.
I didn’t take your post in a negative way – honest – it simply inspired me to offer my 2 cents worth.nor do i object to other’s beliefs unless they try to force whatever they are on others – regardless of how well intentioned they may be. peace, Al
I like your new layout,
I think whether there is a God or not which I can not say really, the impacts of the world which brought/bring from that BIG GUY is kinda “settled”.Lets put it that way, if God goes down, the world goes down, for instance : The meaning of holidays.
just to be clarify, I do not believe in god myself.
too much to read… haha..so, are you into God? :)
Haha, i liked this post. The GodTube video was a bit much… i don’t really see how a site about God videos can be the fastest growing site on the internet, but maybe i’m underestimating the Christian public. But to each their own… i guess it could be seen as morally better than wasting all your time on non-God videos.
Debating the existence of God through the net always feels a little strange. i’m a believer and i don’t really give a crap what other people think. i’m not one of those hardline legalistic Christians. i just think everyone has their own path. And even if there isn’t a God, it never really hurt to believe in something that attempted to make things more peaceful. i think people like to view the overzealous Christians and Muslims as a sign that religion is bad, but that’s a problem with people bending religion to their personal goals and less about religion guiding them down a dark path. People begin to overglorify themselves. They think more like, “Why compromise when you’re the righteous one?”.
In some ways, the people who have such vehement disdain for religious people freak me out more. i guess there’s a limit to cynicism that i can take. i mean, i do understand the annoyance of people asking if you’re saved. Or if you know their Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. But… say with society today, there were still the current laws but all law enforcement went away. i would like for people to still believe that there is some greater being judging/watching them and keeping them in line. i don’t trust human nature enough to believe that without laws or rules that we’d live in a perfect society.
Yeah… anyway, just a quick random blurb about nothing. Thanks for the thought-invoking posts (as always!).
But strictly speaking if atheism were a “nothing” or
a “negative” you wouldn’t have atheist groups, atheist books, atheist
conferences, a new atheist radio show, would you?
So atheists are united ideologically. Their uniting belief is hostility
to God and to religion. Plus the new atheist books have common
ideological themes that are advanced as positives: respect for reason
and science, a belief that man has no special place in the universe, a
belief that man makes his own morality rather than derives it from
nature or God, etc, etc.
When horrible crimes are committed in the name of establishing a
secular utopia freed from the shackles of God and religion, I think
atheists who have been advancing those ideas bear some
responsibility…certainly as much as Christians bear responsibility
for the crimes committed in the name of Christianity.
You can’t define your way out of moral accountability.
DD
dineshdsouza.com
The response:
Atheism is still just a label. Even among atheists we may have
differing viewpoints on God and religion. Some actively reject God,
others aren’t so hostile and simply live lives in which religion plays
no part. Many Buddhists can be labeled as atheist as well, as there is
no omnipotent deity in the Buddhist religion, but they still follow
Buddhist teachings and ideals. There is no unifying set of beliefs we
all agree on. We don’t practice atheism in an organized manner. There
is no Atheist Bible.
Don’t parts of the Bible actually advocate the killing (or at least
conversion) of non-believers, and threaten them with eternal torture
after they’re dead? There is no definitive atheist belief along those
lines. During the Crusades, the Christians believed they were doing
God’s work. They killed in the name of God and their religion. Stalin
murdered millions for the purposes of gaining and maintaining political
power. Yes, he was atheist, but his actions were more motivated by his
political views as opposed to his views on religion.
By the way, was Hitler actually atheist? Obviously I haven’t done that
much research, but after hearing conflicting statements on this
subject, I learned from a cursory Internet search that while he had
rejected Catholicism by the time he gained power, he wasn’t entirely
atheist either. In fact, his religious views appear to be under some
considerable debate, as there is evidence both for and against his
Christianity.
Ah, the God debate. I find I usually only debate this online, because in Australia we tend to be far more relaxed about the existence of God – you’re not going to be socially ostracised in many places in Aussie if you do or do not go to Church or do/do not believe in God. In America, you have full-on university debates on whether you can be good without god or not. Which isn’t necessarily a bad thing – I think it’s great that you have such debates, but not so great that so many people take religion so seriously (for or against it).
I’m for the freedom to believe whatever you want – as long as it doesn’t hurt others and as long as you don’t want to push it on others. Extremism is where things get bad. As long as you can admit you might be wrong, it should all be good. I personally don’t believe in any conventional monotheistic religion, but I’m quite willing to admit I don’t know and could be wrong. One day hopefully we can all find a nice middle ground where we can agree to disagree and not start wars over this crap.
Carey, This is become quite the political/cultural blog. I like it!
Comment: D’Souza fancies himself as an intellectual. His arguments and flimsy, simplistic and easily countered. Like all the right wing, his arguments are based on misunderstanding and caricaturing the other side (like his comments about atheism in the email you quote). Bassam
Atheism vs. Christianity
On the subject of atheism vs.
Christianity there is much to be said. The subject will naturally submerge
us into polemics of the most invidious variety. What it ultimately comes
down to is this: there are those whose belief systems are culturally
and emotionally grounded, and those that choose not to subscribe to
what could be construed as anthropomorphic delusion.
Although I would not purport
to be a Christian per se, (despite my interest in Jewish literature
and Church history) to declare myself an atheist would be both limited
in scope and suggest I am seemingly indigent of imagination. An atheist
believes there is no God. The problem with an absolute declaration like
this is that it begs the question: what exactly do we mean by God? If
by God we mean the God of the ancient Hebrews (and subsequently what
some would consider the figure of Christ himself) then yes, I am an
atheist on the basis that I reject the notion of a personal God. This
is partially because I believe that neither the Hebrew nor the Christian
weltanschauung has any right to sanctimoniously declare their self-proclaimed,
respective apexes of the theological realm to be the center piece of
world religions. Their rituals, which are by and large a hypocritical
pre-occupation and overindulgence in sin and self-righteousness, limit
the average parishioner’s ability to enter the realm of authentic
spiritual ecstasy (unless you count those freaky quacks having fake
orgasms on the Christian music commercials). Contrast their practices
with those of the Hindus or Buddhists, and you will find that by comparison,
many Christians don’t really enter into the true realm of spirit (not
to level that those seeking nirvana or Krishna-consciousness would be).
Buddhism and Hinduism spiritually engage their followers and encourage
their quest while in the midst of life (I have witnessed this first
hand). Granted, like the Christians and Jews, those religions likely
mold, limit, and shape the views of their followers, but at least they
are getting more spiritually advanced in the process. There is no waiting
for the afterlife (which is why Marx called it the opiate of the masses)
as the central focus of its tenets.
On the other hand, to deny
any possibility that there is any mystery to the magic of the living
realm and how it originated (as the atheist might purport) would be
just as narrow-minded as the belief that missionary work is necessary
because the whole world should be subservient to just one arrogant admonition
(or the ethnocentric Ann Coulter imposistionist view). Empirical science
should inspire awe and wonder in humans; not the close minded, fixed
views that characterize the repugnant nature of many organized religions.
Unfortunately I agree agree with the Religion bashing.
I think GodTube is a bit over the top, but at the same time it’s great to see that Christians are taking their faith, and trying to demonstrate it on a better world scale. Though they cannot compare to other religions in faith terms.
I think it takes more of an open mind to understand some of the “Myths” and some of the “Miracles” in whichever Holy text you’re reading, but for now I will assume what I do until I have them all at the present.
It is, in fact not our ability to judge, but to carefully analyze and present our findings in the most non-biased way possible, for opinions cloud our mind and “The Way”, whichever way you may be following. They are in fact unnecessary in front of truth. And what you have present, is opinion, with skewed truth, to some extent.
In all patience is the truth we should follow in life, at least until I can figure out what I’m proving.
I also notice you did not speak on Buddhism. That is in fact one of the first strange mishaps that happen in religious arguments/debates. No one decides to talk of it, as if it does not exist.
@authentic_black_dragon - Thank you for the thoughtful and well articulated reply. Buddhism did not enter into this discussion, simple because it was not a featured part of the debate I saw. I would love to have the Buddhists and the Hindus included too. Have a great week!
I’ll have to check this out again later, looks too deep for night reading.
:O! I would love to have heard this debate. I always want to know more information about both sides, and informed, intellectual individuals debating the existence of God and religion would be very interesting.
@Bassam - making an argument, for the existence of God, is hands down twice as hard as making the counter. D’ Souza makes some great points considering he doesn’t have the luxury of touching, seeing, etc.. like the atheistic stand point has with science. to be able to argue D’souza side as convincingly as he does, is a miracle in itself. God doesn’t want us to have scientific evidence of his existence. God wants us to have faith by his word. It would be to easy to believe in something that you know is their. That’s why God gives us the CHOICE to believe or not.
I clicked on your God Tube link, (the one that said “content like this) it said “invalid video”.
There are extremists in any group who use the group they hide behind to push their own hate. If it were not religion it would be some other venue. To point to those and say all religious people must be wrong because of those is very closed minded.
Oh, and one more thing. As far as I know, no one who actually believes we are nearing the Armageddon of Revelation is praying for the deaths of millions, but instead, actually trying to lead as many to salvation as they can before it is too late for them. Just because they may believe we are very near the end of the world as we know it, (I am one of those) does not mean they think of this with anticipation and glee. It just means they have less time so it makes them more determined to lead as many as possible to salvation.
@mtngirlsouth - Yep, GodTube ended up taking that video down, but it’s on YouTube and that’s what I have posted here. I don’t think anyone is saying all religious people are wrong. That’s too huge a generalization. I’m certainly not saying it! Thanks
@bukeshow - Thanks for bringing some more debate to this post I made nearly two years ago!
@mtngirlsouth - Isn’t it rather presumptuous to assume anyone needs “salvation”? If the world ends tomorrow, I will die knowing I lived a good life. I have no illusions or hopes of anything after that!
@CareyGLY - That’s good. I am so sick of people thinking of me as some dumb feeble minded sheep who blindly follows everything her preacher ever told her!
@CareyGLY - If I really believe what I claim to believe then all humans old enough to understand accountability do. If I really believe what I claim to believe, this should be more important to me than making them comfortable, because eternity is a lot longer than this life. If I really care about my fellow man, and wish to show them true love, I cannot stand by silently and watch them go the way that will lead them to suffering. What else can I do but at least try and stop them? Even if they hate me for it, I would rather warn them than stand idly by and do nothing, just because it may make my life a bit more uncomfortable. But I try not to be unpleasant, and if they reject it, move on.
@mtngirlsouth - I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree there. With all due respect, I’m an intelligent adult who can make my own decisions. Can you make an alcoholic stop drinking before they’re ready to admit they have a problem? No. I don’t believe in what you espouse. I’m 44 years old and have read many books and studied many religions all over the world. If I ever change my mind though, I’ll look you up! Peace
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posits “If you are a Christian, Muslim or Jew – You are wrong”:
The kind who live next to you. The kind who voted for George Bush. The kind who send their religious leaders to the White House to argue against even-handedness in the Middle East because it would prevent their sick prophecy. The kind who have undue influence over how we use the greatest and most lethal army ever built by man.
Comments (40)
Darn Carey. You put this wonderful stuff up and my computer lacks sound for Youtube for some odd reason. I have tried all the stuff Youtube says and more can’t find a solution. Judi
OMG… there’s a GodTube? I think I just vomitted a little in my mouth. Ugh, I am so rude. Future Mr. Professional Asshole.
don’t knock God.
Thanks for your comments! BTW, the link you sent me had a lot of potential. If you applied some graduated neutral density filters to them you would have had some excellent shots indeed. I actually wouldn’t mind taking a trip there too myself.
Lastly, I’m surprised your father actually like the lighthouse shots. I thought they were OK, but I’m glad someone likes them! :D
ya! pretty ceiling~like something absorbed by the blackhole~ haha~
ryc: Thanks for such the nice comment, but I’m no where near her level of talent!
I can’t believe there’s actually such a thing as “God Tube”. That video that you posted is actually pretty good. Whoever did the photography really knew what they were doing. I think they probably coulda got someone better to play the part of the “religious man” not ready to die for his faith.
That video and plot actually remind me of a movie I’ve seen before. I just woke up and can’t remember it right now.
Oh no God Tube?? Simply blunt words it perfectly…”I think I just vomited a little in my mouth.” My feeling exactly. That looked liked such an interesting debate. I should attend debates because sitting around the house and watching the View is just making me dumber.
Random props…awesome blog entry. Sounds like a hell of a debate. I don’t always agree with Shermer, but D’Souza is a fool. A straight-up fool.
Christianity – The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own
father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and
telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove
an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a
rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical
tree… yeah, makes perfect sense
I’ve seen Hitchens debate D’Souza on TV. D’Souza lost that one, too, IMO.
haha. I can’t believe there is a GodTube.
That is pathetic.
I LOVE your blog.
And thank you for your suggestions. They were very true. I have no idea what I would do without my friends to help me through it.
Thank you very much for reading and commenting. Shows you care.
Love,
Ty
I have to say, you do a good job with your blog it is always interesting and I always enjoy the pictures. You obviously don’t believe in God and that Jesus Christ was his son. I don’t want to debate because I am not good at it but I absolutely do believe in God and Christ. I think everyone wants someone or something to believe in – what is it you believe in? I don’t know either of these men that you witnessed during their debate but it sounds to me like there was more than one fool on the stage! I grew up in a Christian family and I raise my family in a similar way. I believe that a lot of people can go overboard with a lot of different religons (not just Christians) I try hard to do what I believe is right – not just what I am told is right. I try to form my own opinion about how we should live and who I should believe in rather than doing what my parents taught me or what my friends may be doing. I would hope that everyone else could do the same and find their own answers rather than just blindly trusting in something or someone. I am glad you posted about this – I will have to check out some beliefs mentioned here. Thanks – very interesting!
ok carey, you inspired a post for me – lol – didn’t wanna have a big long winded comment here anyhow! peace, Al
Thanks for your comments, as always Blessed. I went to another talk last year by Julia Sweeney, entitled “Letting Go of God”. I would love to hear your thoughts on it. You can find it here:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OtIyx687ytk
I don’t think this post reveals that I don’t believe in God, but that might be inferred. I do have respect for those who believe. If it works for you, I think that’s great.
ryc: the pics were taken before the rain, that’s why it’s so smoggy. after the rain, i couldn’t believe that i could see the griffith observatory from the 10!
thanks for the words of encouragement! hope all is well.
I didn’t take your post in a negative way – honest – it simply inspired me to offer my 2 cents worth.nor do i object to other’s beliefs unless they try to force whatever they are on others – regardless of how well intentioned they may be. peace, Al
I like your new layout,
I think whether there is a God or not which I can not say really, the impacts of the world which brought/bring from that BIG GUY is kinda “settled”.Lets put it that way, if God goes down, the world goes down, for instance : The meaning of holidays.
just to be clarify, I do not believe in god myself.
too much to read… haha..so, are you into God? :)
Haha, i liked this post. The GodTube video was a bit much… i don’t really see how a site about God videos can be the fastest growing site on the internet, but maybe i’m underestimating the Christian public. But to each their own… i guess it could be seen as morally better than wasting all your time on non-God videos.
Debating the existence of God through the net always feels a little strange. i’m a believer and i don’t really give a crap what other people think. i’m not one of those hardline legalistic Christians. i just think everyone has their own path. And even if there isn’t a God, it never really hurt to believe in something that attempted to make things more peaceful. i think people like to view the overzealous Christians and Muslims as a sign that religion is bad, but that’s a problem with people bending religion to their personal goals and less about religion guiding them down a dark path. People begin to overglorify themselves. They think more like, “Why compromise when you’re the righteous one?”.
In some ways, the people who have such vehement disdain for religious people freak me out more. i guess there’s a limit to cynicism that i can take. i mean, i do understand the annoyance of people asking if you’re saved. Or if you know their Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. But… say with society today, there were still the current laws but all law enforcement went away. i would like for people to still believe that there is some greater being judging/watching them and keeping them in line. i don’t trust human nature enough to believe that without laws or rules that we’d live in a perfect society.
Yeah… anyway, just a quick random blurb about nothing. Thanks for the thought-invoking posts (as always!).
Johnny515 for President!!!!!!!!!!!!
Shelley did a great post on this too: http://shelley.freeserverhost.com/index.php?id=436
Email from Dinesh D’Souza
Passed along via Tyson:
But strictly speaking if atheism were a “nothing” or
a “negative” you wouldn’t have atheist groups, atheist books, atheist
conferences, a new atheist radio show, would you?
So atheists are united ideologically. Their uniting belief is hostility
to God and to religion. Plus the new atheist books have common
ideological themes that are advanced as positives: respect for reason
and science, a belief that man has no special place in the universe, a
belief that man makes his own morality rather than derives it from
nature or God, etc, etc.
When horrible crimes are committed in the name of establishing a
secular utopia freed from the shackles of God and religion, I think
atheists who have been advancing those ideas bear some
responsibility…certainly as much as Christians bear responsibility
for the crimes committed in the name of Christianity.
You can’t define your way out of moral accountability.
DD
dineshdsouza.com
The response:
Atheism is still just a label. Even among atheists we may have
differing viewpoints on God and religion. Some actively reject God,
others aren’t so hostile and simply live lives in which religion plays
no part. Many Buddhists can be labeled as atheist as well, as there is
no omnipotent deity in the Buddhist religion, but they still follow
Buddhist teachings and ideals. There is no unifying set of beliefs we
all agree on. We don’t practice atheism in an organized manner. There
is no Atheist Bible.
Don’t parts of the Bible actually advocate the killing (or at least
conversion) of non-believers, and threaten them with eternal torture
after they’re dead? There is no definitive atheist belief along those
lines. During the Crusades, the Christians believed they were doing
God’s work. They killed in the name of God and their religion. Stalin
murdered millions for the purposes of gaining and maintaining political
power. Yes, he was atheist, but his actions were more motivated by his
political views as opposed to his views on religion.
By the way, was Hitler actually atheist? Obviously I haven’t done that
much research, but after hearing conflicting statements on this
subject, I learned from a cursory Internet search that while he had
rejected Catholicism by the time he gained power, he wasn’t entirely
atheist either. In fact, his religious views appear to be under some
considerable debate, as there is evidence both for and against his
Christianity.
Ah, the God debate. I find I usually only debate this online, because in Australia we tend to be far more relaxed about the existence of God – you’re not going to be socially ostracised in many places in Aussie if you do or do not go to Church or do/do not believe in God. In America, you have full-on university debates on whether you can be good without god or not. Which isn’t necessarily a bad thing – I think it’s great that you have such debates, but not so great that so many people take religion so seriously (for or against it).
I’m for the freedom to believe whatever you want – as long as it doesn’t hurt others and as long as you don’t want to push it on others. Extremism is where things get bad. As long as you can admit you might be wrong, it should all be good. I personally don’t believe in any conventional monotheistic religion, but I’m quite willing to admit I don’t know and could be wrong. One day hopefully we can all find a nice middle ground where we can agree to disagree and not start wars over this crap.
Carey, This is become quite the political/cultural blog. I like it!
Comment: D’Souza fancies himself as an intellectual. His arguments and flimsy, simplistic and easily countered. Like all the right wing, his arguments are based on misunderstanding and caricaturing the other side (like his comments about atheism in the email you quote). Bassam
Atheism vs. Christianity
On the subject of atheism vs.
Christianity there is much to be said. The subject will naturally submerge
us into polemics of the most invidious variety. What it ultimately comes
down to is this: there are those whose belief systems are culturally
and emotionally grounded, and those that choose not to subscribe to
what could be construed as anthropomorphic delusion.
Although I would not purport
to be a Christian per se, (despite my interest in Jewish literature
and Church history) to declare myself an atheist would be both limited
in scope and suggest I am seemingly indigent of imagination. An atheist
believes there is no God. The problem with an absolute declaration like
this is that it begs the question: what exactly do we mean by God? If
by God we mean the God of the ancient Hebrews (and subsequently what
some would consider the figure of Christ himself) then yes, I am an
atheist on the basis that I reject the notion of a personal God. This
is partially because I believe that neither the Hebrew nor the Christian
weltanschauung has any right to sanctimoniously declare their self-proclaimed,
respective apexes of the theological realm to be the center piece of
world religions. Their rituals, which are by and large a hypocritical
pre-occupation and overindulgence in sin and self-righteousness, limit
the average parishioner’s ability to enter the realm of authentic
spiritual ecstasy (unless you count those freaky quacks having fake
orgasms on the Christian music commercials). Contrast their practices
with those of the Hindus or Buddhists, and you will find that by comparison,
many Christians don’t really enter into the true realm of spirit (not
to level that those seeking nirvana or Krishna-consciousness would be).
Buddhism and Hinduism spiritually engage their followers and encourage
their quest while in the midst of life (I have witnessed this first
hand). Granted, like the Christians and Jews, those religions likely
mold, limit, and shape the views of their followers, but at least they
are getting more spiritually advanced in the process. There is no waiting
for the afterlife (which is why Marx called it the opiate of the masses)
as the central focus of its tenets.
On the other hand, to deny
any possibility that there is any mystery to the magic of the living
realm and how it originated (as the atheist might purport) would be
just as narrow-minded as the belief that missionary work is necessary
because the whole world should be subservient to just one arrogant admonition
(or the ethnocentric Ann Coulter imposistionist view). Empirical science
should inspire awe and wonder in humans; not the close minded, fixed
views that characterize the repugnant nature of many organized religions.
Unfortunately I agree agree with the Religion bashing.
I think GodTube is a bit over the top, but at the same time it’s great to see that Christians are taking their faith, and trying to demonstrate it on a better world scale. Though they cannot compare to other religions in faith terms.
I think it takes more of an open mind to understand some of the “Myths” and some of the “Miracles” in whichever Holy text you’re reading, but for now I will assume what I do until I have them all at the present.
It is, in fact not our ability to judge, but to carefully analyze and present our findings in the most non-biased way possible, for opinions cloud our mind and “The Way”, whichever way you may be following. They are in fact unnecessary in front of truth. And what you have present, is opinion, with skewed truth, to some extent.
In all patience is the truth we should follow in life, at least until I can figure out what I’m proving.
I also notice you did not speak on Buddhism. That is in fact one of the first strange mishaps that happen in religious arguments/debates. No one decides to talk of it, as if it does not exist.
@authentic_black_dragon - Thank you for the thoughtful and well articulated reply. Buddhism did not enter into this discussion, simple because it was not a featured part of the debate I saw. I would love to have the Buddhists and the Hindus included too. Have a great week!
godtube…..ftw?!?!?!?!
religion = scary
@shake_things_up - LOL, does ftw stand for “fuck the what”??
I’ll have to check this out again later, looks too deep for night reading.
:O! I would love to have heard this debate. I always want to know more information about both sides, and informed, intellectual individuals debating the existence of God and religion would be very interesting.
@Bassam - making an argument, for the existence of God, is hands down twice as hard as making the counter. D’ Souza makes some great points considering he doesn’t have the luxury of touching, seeing, etc.. like the atheistic stand point has with science. to be able to argue D’souza side as convincingly as he does, is a miracle in itself. God doesn’t want us to have scientific evidence of his existence. God wants us to have faith by his word. It would be to easy to believe in something that you know is their. That’s why God gives us the CHOICE to believe or not.
I clicked on your God Tube link, (the one that said “content like this) it said “invalid video”.
There are extremists in any group who use the group they hide behind to push their own hate. If it were not religion it would be some other venue. To point to those and say all religious people must be wrong because of those is very closed minded.
Oh, and one more thing. As far as I know, no one who actually believes we are nearing the Armageddon of Revelation is praying for the deaths of millions, but instead, actually trying to lead as many to salvation as they can before it is too late for them. Just because they may believe we are very near the end of the world as we know it, (I am one of those) does not mean they think of this with anticipation and glee. It just means they have less time so it makes them more determined to lead as many as possible to salvation.
@mtngirlsouth - Yep, GodTube ended up taking that video down, but it’s on YouTube and that’s what I have posted here. I don’t think anyone is saying all religious people are wrong. That’s too huge a generalization. I’m certainly not saying it! Thanks
@bukeshow - Thanks for bringing some more debate to this post I made nearly two years ago!
@mtngirlsouth - Isn’t it rather presumptuous to assume anyone needs “salvation”? If the world ends tomorrow, I will die knowing I lived a good life. I have no illusions or hopes of anything after that!
@CareyGLY - That’s good. I am so sick of people thinking of me as some dumb feeble minded sheep who blindly follows everything her preacher ever told her!
@CareyGLY - If I really believe what I claim to believe then all humans old enough to understand accountability do. If I really believe what I claim to believe, this should be more important to me than making them comfortable, because eternity is a lot longer than this life. If I really care about my fellow man, and wish to show them true love, I cannot stand by silently and watch them go the way that will lead them to suffering. What else can I do but at least try and stop them? Even if they hate me for it, I would rather warn them than stand idly by and do nothing, just because it may make my life a bit more uncomfortable. But I try not to be unpleasant, and if they reject it, move on.
@mtngirlsouth - I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree there. With all due respect, I’m an intelligent adult who can make my own decisions. Can you make an alcoholic stop drinking before they’re ready to admit they have a problem? No. I don’t believe in what you espouse. I’m 44 years old and have read many books and studied many religions all over the world. If I ever change my mind though, I’ll look you up! Peace