April 30, 2008
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Pandora’s War Chest
Note: What this entry doesn’t show is a very long backstory. I post it here simply as catharsis and fodder for commentary, both positive and negative. I’m not perfect and I’m not afraid of exposing some of my own flaws publicly. Suffice it to say, I know from whence I cometh.
Carey Anthony
Re: Michael’s Son
12 messages
From: Bob
Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 11:06 AM
To: Carey
Carey,
Remember Michael,
who was at the party?His only son died
in Iraq last week.It’s a terrible
loss, but that’s what he wanted to do, like all the other volunteers fighting
for us.Bob
From: Carey Anthony
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 1:06 PM
To: Bob
Subject: Re: Michael’s SonI’m sorry for his loss.
Even more reason we should have never gone to Iraq. Senseless, and he
accomplished nothing. Too bad.
From: Bob
Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 11:09 AM
To: Carey Anthony
Sorry, but I don’t agree with you on that, and neither would Michael.
You should thank God there are people who are willing to give
their lives so you can live the way you do.
From: Carey Anthony
Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 11:15 AM
To: Bob
I’m thankful we have brave men and women protecting our
country. God has nothing to do with it. This war is senseless, and needs to
end. Period.
From: Bob
Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 12:09 PM
To: Carey Anthony
I can see where someone without strong faith can feel
like that. I didn’t know that you went that far over the edge or what
you do believe in anymore.I’m sorry, but this is another reason not to read what
you write about Bush & the war.
From: Carey Anthony
Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 12:25 PM
To: Bob
Ignorance is not bliss Bob.
I don’t think you want to open this Pandora’s Box, but if you do, prepare
for the onslaught.You can start by reading The
God Delusion or even watching Letting
Go of God, since I’m sure you never watched it when I sent it to you the first 2 times. After
that we can have an intelligent, informed debate on the subject.Of course, if you want to continue to believe in talking snakes and other
such nonsense, we can maintain the status quo. Just don’t try to
incite me with pitiful stories about dead soldiers, because it will only
fan the flame. I in turn won’t point out the hypocrisy of your
poisonous Catholic beliefs and the way you have lived your life.
I’m quite content with maintaining our current relationship. We can
remain civil as long as we don’t bring up politics or religion, because we
will never agree. But the hole in my heart, for someone I once looked
up to, who refuses to even acknowledge other thoughts, will continue to
widen.
From: Bob
Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 12:42 PM
To: Carey Anthony
Carey, I agree that we will never agree on a lot of things.
I’m not going to change you and you’re certainly not going to change me.I wasn’t trying to do anything with my e-mail except let you
know a close personal friend of mine had died.I think we’ve talked enough about this.
From: Carey Anthony
Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 12:55 PM
To: Bob
Bcc: A Concerned FriendFine, but one last thing. You were NOT just trying
to let me know that your friend’s son died. You were making a
commentary on this war, and if you deny that you’re a liar! But I didn’t say that.
From: A concerned friend
Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 11:06 PM
To: Carey Anthony
Yikes. Let me first make clear that I completely understand
how Bob’s willful ignorance and obvious lack of reason could test your
patience. It’s frustrating to try to argue facts and logic with the
President of The Flat Earth Society. Maybe that was your first mistake: you
clearly knew his position on the war in Iraq, yet you chose to engage him
anyway. That in itself is no crime. Far be it from me to dissuade anyone
from missionary work. But you did so in a deliberately provocative and
callous manner. Whatever your feelings about the war, he was obviously
deeply affected by this tragic loss–and I think we all can agree it is
indeed tragic and indeed a loss. So, tempting though it may have been,
perhaps this was not the most appropriate moment to initiate a conversation
about the relative value of this young man’s sacrifice in the service of
his country. It seems to me that Bob may have been reaching out to you for
comfort and consolation, and instead he was met with an indelicate (some
might say brutal) response that felt almost accusatory. I doubt his
recrimination surprised you. In fact, I suspect you intended as much, which
of course opened the door for a second “conversation” on an
equally sensitive topic: his “imaginary friend,” as Bill Maher
likes to say. And while most reasonable 20th century adults might deem it
fair to question the moral authority of organized religion, and might even
be inclined to agree that it’s not outrageous to ask whether or not God is
really just Santa for adults, again I must question your timing. It was
poor, to say the least.But what really struck me was the veiled hostility and contempt betrayed by
your condescending tone from the outset, which of course devolved into open
hostility and contempt. Hardly productive if your genuine intent was to
have a civil discussion about politics and religion with the man. But that
wasn’t your goal, really. No, your goal–as you so eloquently pointed out
at the end–was to make Bob feel your pain for himself, let him know how it
feels. You desperately want him understand that he has a recurring a
pattern of behavior that hurts you. And his unwillingness to even
acknowledge that much, let alone take responsibility for it, only rubs salt
in the wound. Your pain is valid. Your feelings are valid. You deserve better,
especially from someone like Bob. But lashing out in kind, while totally
understandable, will not achieve the resolution you desire deep down. It’s
unhealthy. And it’s no excuse for your behavior. You’re bigger than this.
You can’t honestly be satisfied with the way this little exchange panned
out. My advice: apologize to Bob for not being more sensitive to his
feelings, explain why you reacted as you did, and tell him you hope someday
he will own up to the pain he causes you and make it right. If he’s not
willing to concede you at least that much, I’m afraid you’ll just have to
accept him for the complete ass he is and attempt to maintain a safe
emotional distance. It’s nothing personal, Bob, and from now on let’s keep
it that way. Nice and impersonal.Lastly, for future reference, you can spare yourself a lot of unnecessary
aggravation by remembering that when faced with a hard fact and a strong
belief that contradict one another, people almost invariably choose the
belief.I love you and I’m sorry Bob is a Luddite.
Your Concerned Friend
From: Carey Anthony
Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 2:33 AM
To: A Concerned Friend
Of course you’re right about everything. Except
for maybe one small detail. I’m quite sure that Bob sent me the
original email to just get a jab in about the war. Not to tell me about his friend’s dead son. If that is indeed the
case, then he deserves what he got. Luddite indeed.Signed,
Still Bitter in Bollywood
From: A Concerned Friend
Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 5:50 PM
To: Carey Anthony
Dear SBIB,
Although I didn’t mention it before, I admit I had the same suspicion as
you did about your Bob’s real intentions in sending you the news in the
first place. I elected not to explore that possibility because it seemed
unfair not to give him the benefit of the doubt. Besides, I’ve been trying
to temper my trademark cynicism of late. So I went with a presumption of
innocence and assumed he was genuinely saddened by this news and wanted to
share his grief with you. Still, anyone could see clearly at very specific
points throughout your exchange that he seemed to be pushing buttons. And
I’m guessing he knew just what buttons to push and what your reaction would
be (sound familiar?).Whether or not he was consciously trying to insult you remains a matter of
speculation, but you know much credence I put in gut instinct. If your gut
tells you he sent you that e-mail as a “jab”, you may well be
right. Certainly you know him better than I and are far more qualified to
make that judgment. I do find it curious, though, that he would consider
the news that a friend’s son died in combat in Iraq as somehow an
indictment of your patriotism or moral compass, if for argument’s sake that
was his intent.By that logic, the fact that so many Americans died in Vietnam
automatically means Vietnam was a noble cause, and not a colossal
humanitarian and foreign policy disaster. Like so many of his misguided
ilk, Bob seems to equate not supporting the policies of our civilian
political officials with not supporting our combat troops. Bizarre logic,
to be sure, but quite useful when a person is looking for a reason to clear
his conscience and avoid admitting he was dead fucking wrong on such a
grave matter. (Remember what I said about fact vs. belief.)I would argue the reverse is true in this case: support for our troops and
support for this President’s foreign policy are mutually exclusive if you
look at the facts.That boy’s blood — and the blood of
countless thousands of other people who have died needlessly in Iraq based
on the policies of this administration — is on Bob’s hands and the hands
of anyone else who voted for this administration and continues to support
their foreign policy. Michael’s son died serving his country. He died
honorably. He died doing his sworn duty as a United States soldier. But he
died needlessly, in vain, and he died for the ugliest of causes: money. Bob
needs to come to terms with his role in this boy’s death, because he is not
innocent.These are indisputable facts: Iraq has no connection whatsoever with 911.
It never did. It has no connection with our invasion of Afghanistan or
Islamic fundamentalist terrorism (at least it didn’t until after we toppled
Hussein and the jihadi flooded in from neighboring countries). We did not
invade Iraq to make the world safe for Democracy or to free oppressed
people. Nor did we invade Iraq to protect ourselves from a rogue state with
weapons of mass destruction (it had none, and its capability to develop
them had been non-existent for more than a decade). All false pretenses and
lies. Well-documented, indisputable fact.Fact: we invaded Iraq as part of a twisted foreign policy vision for
American military and economic domination called the “Project for the
New American Century” drafted during the 90s (i.e., quite pre-911) by
ultra-conservative capitalist nationalists (American neo-fascists, to be
exact), many of whom currently work at the White House. (And to a lesser
extent because the President was nursing an Oedipal grudge against the
Hussein family.)Besides being spectacularly out of touch with reality (i.e., the love child
of a bunch of demagogue nuts wed by Judeo-Christian fundamentalism and free
market absolutism), The Project for the New American Century in practice
represents a Christmas cash cow for petrol barons and the
military-industrial complex.Phase one: stabilize the Middle East initially by way of force, and longer
term by threat of force, thus securing our economic interests (read: oil)
in the region for generations to come. In other words, scare the piss out of
the Arabs by invading one of their neighbors and establishing a puppet
regime. And you’re next if you don’t fall into line!Hence the Iraq invasion. Well, admittedly it didn’t work out quite the way
these geniuses planned. Apparently, the Middle East isn’t so easily
stabilized. Who knew?But at least they achieved one of their objectives: some very special
interests got really rich (ok, really richer).The oil companies have logged record profits. And anyone with a defense
contract is sitting pretty, too. But why stop there? We’ve even privatized
our own army! They’re called contractors (e.g., Blackwater, Titan, etc.),
but the more accurate word is mercenaries. And they are not subject to the Geneva
Convention (a quaint ole treatise, anyway, according to the former Attorney
General), nor do they answer to our own military on the ground. In fact,
for example, U.S. soldiers implicated in the torture of detainees at Abu
Ghraib were acting under the direction of private contractors. Since when
do our own soldiers take orders from for-profit corporations? Since we
invaded Iraq.Sadly, the Iraq War is really–and has always been–about lining the
pockets of war profiteers. And they’re doing it with the blood of our young
men and women in the military (most of whom, coincidentally, come from the
lower socio-economic strata of the U.S. population). I know it’s horrifying
and almost inconceivable that our own government would perpetrate such a
heinous crime against its citizens, but these are facts. Not my personal beliefs,
mind you. Not opinions. Not conjecture. Facts. Just check out Exxon
Mobile’s financial statements. Better yet, check out the Vice-President’s
former employer, Halliburton, the poster child of corporations associated
with the Iraq War. Before the Iraq
War began, it was 19th on the U.S. Army’s list of top contractors. In 2003,
it claimed the number one spot and grossed $4.2 billion from the U.S.
government. Our tax dollars.BTW, as of 2005, according to a report issued by Sen. Frank
Lautenberg (D-NJ) at the time,
Vice-President Cheney held 433,333 Halliburton stock options which
over the course of the year prior rose 3,281% in value from $241,498 to
more than $8 million. I don’t know what came of those stock options, but
Cheney reportedly said he will give the proceeds to charity. I believe him,
don’t you? I also understand the ex-CEO continues to receive a deferred
salary in the neighborhood of $250,000 annually from the company, but this
requires a fact check.
How many lives has this administration destroyed for its blood money? For
starters, there are close to 100,000 Iraqi civilians dead. (A conservative
estimate according to the Iraq Body Count Project.) Women. Children. But
who cares about them anyway, right? They deserve to die. They hate our freedom.And how many of our young soldiers’ lives have been wasted? More than 4,000
are dead. How many have been maimed for life? The government won’t tell us
for sure. They estimate close to 30,000. Some estimates from credible
sources are closer to 100,000. They don’t want us to think about the cost
in blood that some of us are paying while others turn a profit. They won’t even allow the media to show
us the coffins draped in our flag. Can’t do that, because then people might
start asking the wrong kinds of questions when they should be watching
American Idol.Meanwhile, the administration cuts veterans’ benefits, denies them decent
medical treatment and closes VA hospitals.BTW, a topic seldom mentioned in the “liberal” media: how many
living Iraq combat veterans and families of those who died in combat are
now living just above the poverty line?And Dick Cheney, who dodged the Vietnam War but sees fit to send other
people’s children to their deaths, how much money has he really made since
we invaded Iraq?You can bet that the answers to these questions don’t square well with most
definitions of patriotism and morality.Who is responsible for this insanity?
Bob, God-fearing patriot
and paragon of moral virtue that he is, voted for these people, twice. And
he continues to blindly support them and their hideous little excursion in
Iraq. Blind faith seems to be what he’s best at. I say ask him, because we
certainly can’t ask Michael’s son.By contrast, you want to get our kids out of the middle of a civil war that
our corrupt, incompetent, morally bankrupt leaders started, a conflict that
has virtually no bearing on our national security, and bring them home to
their families safe and sound before another drop of their blood is flushed
down the toilet by our President and his cronies.Now tell me again, who supports the troops?
From: Carey Anthony
Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 11:59 PM
To: A Concerned Friend
I’ve read this
three times now and my mouth is still agape.
It’s like a Master’s class on this war and indeed the whole
administration. It’s obvious there are other issues I need to address with Bob, and this email was the catalyst to unleash those issues. I can only hope that
others who read this, who are less closed minded and stubborn than Bob, will
realize how unimaginably wrong the whole thing is. I believe history will show that the past
eight years have been the most damaging in United States history. No matter who gets elected in the fall, it
will take decades to repair the damage from this administration. I think you should run for office! Thanks…as always, for your friendship, your
honesty and your insight.Time for American Idol
Carey
Comments (27)
Uhm… looks like I just walked into a field of land mines. ryc – thanks, I’ll have to remember that.
just wanted to say thanks for the link :]]
bob has his points as well… erm nonetheless the stupid war indeed needs to end!!!! i love the last pix
hey where is the check? bank-in would be faster though =)
i didnt get the feeling that bob was trying to bait you in his initial email, so i thought your responses were rather harsh (sorry!). then again, i don’t know this bob, & you know him better, so he may be baiting you as far as i know.
I think that to think the Administration’s sole purpose for invading Iraq was for financial gain is a bit over-the-top and conspiratorial. But what do I know.
@ElusiveWords - Yep, this whole thing is a land mine. You’re right.
@xXxGh3tToHk3vIn - Any time!
@lcfu - The check’s in the mail Fufu!
@generasianx - What this post doesn’t show, is the back story. “Bob” is a pseudonym for someone I know very well…who loves George W. Bush like a father, and thinks we need to be in Iraq as long as possible to teach the “Moslems”, yes Moslems, a lesson.
@infinitysurfer - I know what you know James…and I know you can’t write it here….We should talk about it more sometime though. Having just come from Texas, I’m sure you know many “Bobs” just like the person I describe above. Suffice it to say, there’s MUCH more to this story than what I’m typing here. Thanks buddy.
Holy effing shit. I wouldn’t want to get into a verbal arguement with you , seems like you just burnt that guy with words pretty hard to do considering the laws of physics and the presence of the computer make it pretty much impossible to do. Awesome lol! Wooters , you should be on my debate team at school , I’m sure they still accept students at heart! =P
Ryc : Lol yeah i’m back to blogging , but school starts next week so we’ll see then lol. Shanes the guy I wanna be with , and Patrick’s his ADD control freak boyfriend. Don’t know what shane sees in him =/
@Loltothepower - Thanks Jin! “Student at heart”, LOL, I’ll take it. Tell Patrick you want to debate him in L.A. and I’ll be your debate coach. I’m very good at getting what I want if you haven’t already noticed. I can do the same for you!
i certainly agree with your stance on the war – while the deaths of these soldiers are honorable, they are also a waste – we are where we don’t belong and it’s destroying our country and our economy.
as for God, while I cannot prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that He does exist, neither can you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that He doesn’t. scripture of all flavors has been handed down verbally for long periods of time, always been subject to interpretation – I for example don’t accept the bible as literal – and translation from sources long lost. much evil in this world can find it’s roots in religion and this holds true even back past the birth of Abraham, but let’s not also forget that a great deal of good – much undocumented – has also been done in it’s name. It is good to question God’s existance – i have myself, so my faith is not blind to those questions you and others raise – all I know is that I have found a friend in God. all religions are tools – used well, they create beautiful results, used improperly, they cause harm, despair, death, and destruction.
now that you’ve got me running late for work, i need to S, S, but not S. peace, Al
@pukemeister - Sorry to make you late. I will never be a 7 on Dawkins’ scale because, you’re right, I could never prove it. I’m about a 5.5 now, working up to 6. Have a nice day!
I do think it is time for the war to end that is for sure. Our troops have been there way too long at this point. However when I was reading the post, the part that you referred to as a Master’s Class all I read was blah, blah, blah. Some people just go a little over the top with it all. Just like you commented back about the background of Bob and how this person thinks we should simply teach a lesson to the Moslems – that person goes way over board too. Like I said earlier – it is time for our troops to come home!!!
I agree with your ‘Concerned Friend’. Every word of it!
P.S: It is nice to see that at least some American’s are thinking for themselves! ( No offense intended)
@blessedbumble - On that point we do agree!! Thanks for your honest feedback and open mind.
@Dezinerdreams - No offense taken. Maybe if more Americans were offended by the crimes of this Administration, they wouldn’t have voted that asshole into office twice. Thanks Vivek.
Talk
about irony! I was just reading your blog and this picture popped into my
mailbox. Another guy just like your friend Bob – it will never cease to
amaze me how blind and ignorant so many people are when it comes to this war.
Interesting, been thinking about US foreign policy a lot lately myself.
In defense of “concerned friend” I would suggest to Infinitysurfer that there is nothing conspiratorial about stating the obvious fact that we invaded Iraq for purely financial reasons. There is a mountain of evidence to support this assertion, not to mention the circumstantial stuff, like how much we’re paying for gasoline. To arrive at any other conclusion seems pretty naive. The rest of the world understands what is going on well enough, hence the lack of support from our allies overseas.
Maybe Dwight D. Eisenhower (R), former President and Supreme Commander of the Allied Armed Forces during WWII, was also a hippie conspiracy nut when he warned the country about the potential danger posed by the emerging military industrial complex?
http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst306/documents/indust.html
To blessedbumble, I’m curious what you felt was so “over the top”? “Blah, blah blah”? How can you be so flip about such a serious topic?
And what did you mean by “our troops have been there way too long”? Were you under the impression this would be like a quick weekend jaunt to the coast? These are people’s lives we’re talking about. If we invaded for the right reasons, then we should stay as long as it takes to achieve our objectives. A noble cause is worth fighting for. Worth sacrificing for. If our invasion of Iraq was for a noble cause, comparable, say, to that of WWII, then we should stick it out, make sacrifices at home, start rationing, and institute a draft. If it’s not worth instituting a draft today, then it wasn’t worth invading in the first place.
Or have the reasons for our invasion changed? Are we now going to rewrite history to make it convenient for you to agree that we need to pull our troops out of Iraq?
@blessedbumble - @infinitysurfer - @mdrezz - Now THAT’S what I’m talkin’ about!! Thanks mdrezz, as always, for your insight, discretion and friendship. Infinity is a military man who is currently serving, and Blessed is, as her name suggests, a devout Christian. I love the fact that this forum allows for this kind of respectful discourse. I learn so much from people in the blogosphere. Despite our problems, we do live in a wonderful world. This could have never happened 10 years ago. GLY!! (Ironic huh, James & Marc, LOL!!)
@haplessllama - Thanks for stopping by Hapless. Hope all is well in the Rockies.
@mdrezz - I didn’t suggest those who believe we invaded Iraq purely for financial gain were “hippie conspiracy nuts.” I’m not even saying that it’s not ONE of the reasons. Also, we have to define what we mean by financial gain– if you mean securing oil, well, I might be inclined to agree that it was ONE of the reasons. But it looks like you’ve already stereotyped me, so it doesn’t look like we’ll get any productive discussion done. By the way, thanks for the Eisenhower bio!
i don’t think Mr. Bob was originally intending to have a… ahem… discussion about the merits of the war in Iraq. It seemed fairly neutral to me, but it did kind of escalate into something else. i don’t really know his or your history, so really can’t say what his intentions were. If he was trying to use the news of the other guy’s son’s death to get into it with you, then shame on him.
i’m not sure how i feel about all this though… i mean, how can you say that the death of a soldier is honorable if you’re basically saying the troop died for no reason? To sacrifice yourself with honor, don’t you have to have a noble cause? One where the possible (or in this case.. definite) cost of human life pales in comparison to the atrocities that would exist without a fight. People like to say that the soldiers didn’t know what they were getting into. Act like they’re little children with their parents making all the decisions. When i signed up for the military i wouldn’t exactly say i was the most informed enlistee, but i knew that death was a possibility. If you are to make the argument that our troops don’t know the clear and present danger that comes from joining the military (especially with recent recruits into the Army or Marines) with these deployments to Iraq, i would have to call “bullshit”. You’d be underestimating the intelligence of our troops (though i will admit the military isn’t exactly chock full of the brightest people). And if you debase the purpose of this war to financial reasons.. then you’ve also lowered the troops to mercenaries.
i don’t like when people make those blanket statements about troops “fighting for our freedoms” or “upholding our rights” because i don’t see how that really makes any sense either. Those words are like a comfort blanket. A way to look at this war with head held high and jaw tight with determination. So, maybe i just like when people have more action with less words. More supporting the troops and actively pursuing a resolution to the war instead of providing lip service (or disservice) for whatever constituents they want to win over. i personally believe that at this point regardless of the morality of it all… we have to stay and finish the job we started. Quickly. If we were to just pull out completely right now, there would be a huge vacuum that’d fill up with all kinds of not-so-good people. Imagine the out of control Chicago violence without ANY law enforcement. And that would eradicate all purpose in the troop death toll thus far. Maybe it’s just not possible with all the corruption. Maybe it’s just human nature…
The American Idol line got me. How many people vote for American Idol, but won’t do more to finish this war? Think about why our politicians can sit around and just mildly protest the war and then drive off in their SUV while enjoying living in the US and NOT patrolling the streets of Iraq. No one’s lit a fire under their asses. You think our government officials would do more if they were constantly being reminded with messages to “do something” by the voting public? Heck, require them to spend a couple months in Iraq as long as the fighting is going on. See how quickly it ends. Everyone wants their opinion heard, but won’t do anything to get their opinion to the people that matter. But yeah…
Anyway, starting to branch out a little too much. Always nice to have a little war rant every now and then….
@infinitysurfer - Fair enough. I wasn’t stereotyping you, per se, but I was incensed by your suggestion I’m a conspiracy theorist.
This is not a theory. It is fact. Everything I wrote is completely true and well documented. People simply do not want to accept it for what it is. Why is it so difficult for people to acknowledge that people could knowingly kill others for profit? A giant entity causing death on a massive scale for massive financial gain? C’mon. The tobacco companies knowingly killed MILLIONS of people for decades for mega bucks before the truth came out about their product, despite their efforts to cenceal that truth and continue conducting business as usual. This isn’t much different, really.
As for Eisenhower, I was merely emphasizing his credentials b/c he was probably the last person one would expect to deliver a speech warning against the industry of war, thus he should have more credibility that a nobody like me. The URL that I pasted below that statement was not a bio, friend. It leads to copy of the speech I was referencing in the event that you might want to read it for yourself.
I’m sorry if I offended you, btw. It was not my intent.
Ryan: I had to read with an open mind based on your note you prefaced it with. Pretty harsh without knowing the background. Although you can smell his intent and sense the background story when he added the part “…like all the other volunteers fighting for us.”
Carey: Good…you did exactly what I hoped people would. I sat on this for a week before posting it, and now that I have, I’m glad I did. I’ve enjoyed hearing people’s reactions.
Ryan: You were still a dick though – [wink]
Carey: Yep. I was. [smile]
Sent at 10:41 AM on Thursday
oh please Carey,
Wake up and smell the coee. do you
remember September 11th? If we weren’t fighting the extremists on Iraqi
soil, we would be ighting them on American soil. Thank God we have
courageous leaders who have taken the war to Iraq instead of New York.
Margaret, Please excuse me while I VOMIT!!!!
Did you even read this whole
message????
If
you’d like I could send you reams of additional reading material that
proves Iraq had NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11.
What’s coee??
@CareyGLY - Wow… Margaret… Forget about smelling the coffee, I want some of that funky Kool-Aid you’re drinking!
Hurry! Someone do something before the Iraqis all decide to swim over and fight their civil war in the middle of Times Square!
@jonny515 - @mdrezz - @sheah2o – @infinitysurfer - Thanks Jonathan. Shame on Bob indeed! I read your reply with great interest and thought a lot about your question. Can a soldier die with honor while fighting a cause that isn’t noble? I would like to think the answer to that question is yes. While I do agree with you that we often cloak ourselves in “I support the troops” patriotism (I’m admittedly guilty of this myself):
http://weblog.xanga.com/CareyGLY/651268943/pinkberry-with-a-bonafide-hero—a-busy-night-at-the-hc.html
http://weblog.xanga.com/CareyGLY/620655167/the-increasingly-few–proud.html
http://weblog.xanga.com/CareyGLY/622825885/fires-update.html
http://weblog.xanga.com/CareyGLY/652710662/burgers-with-smeagol-the-iraqi-lizard.html
http://weblog.xanga.com/CareyGLY/597520961/email-diaries—the-death-of-oreo-christmas-in-africa-iraq–impeachment-if-only-today.html
I’m inclined to disagree that the “blanket statements” you mention offer little more than comfort. However, you offer an interesting insight as a military man. All I can say is that I AM really proud that people like James and Jimmy (and up until last month, you) are protecting our way of life. I know a little about their feelings towards the war through my conversations with them. If I were in their shoes, I would need to know that my friends and family supported my decision to enlist. (Just as I would support anyone’s decision not to go back if they were stop lossed!) As I believe you yourself have blogged about, the reasons to enlist are many. Some have nothing to do with the war. I respect the fact that people do their duty. I also respect the office of the Presidency of the United States. While I don’t support George W. Bush or his policies, I do respect the office. Did I vote for him? No. Is he my President? Unfortunately yes, and I have to respect the office.
Without going into my history with “Bob”, I still believe that the purpose of his email was incendiary. Of course Michael’s son’s death is a tragedy. But that wasn’t really what this was really about. It was a veiled attempt to invoke sympathy for an unjust war that should simply never have happened. As far as what we should do now, I don’t have the answers. I can only hope that the next administration is skilled enough to know what’s best to do. Unfortunately, in the meantime, we have ignorant fools like Margaret Szczep who are so woefully misinformed that nothing will ever change their minds. I suspect sadly, that she also believes in talking snakes!
Regarding the American Idol line, mdrezz stated, “
They won’t even allow the media to show
us the coffins draped in our flag. Can’t do that, because then people might
start asking the wrong kinds of questions when they should be watching
American Idol.”
I then ended with a tongue in cheek “Time for American Idol”. Just wanted to make sure you knew I wasn’t serious.
(Go David Archuleta! LOL) 
@mdrezz - The problem with your tobacco industry analogy is that in your example, the inanimate, indiscriminate and soulless cigarettes are doing the killing. In theater, our soldiers, marines, airmen and sailors are doing the killing. How then, do you convince an entire military to well, keep killing? Promise them slices of future oil contracts? Obviously not. From all the way to the Commander-in-Chief down to mid-level officers to peons like me, we all saw/see reasons to continue our work, whether it be firsthand observations, intelligence reports, or personal convictions.
If I was Bush, would I have gone into Iraq? No, I would’ve concentrated on Afghanistan. In fact, the majority of the military leadership (Powell included) despised the idea of invading Iraq– why diver the manpower and resources? But if I saw the false (or genuinely mistaken) reports the intelligence community produced at the time, I might have voted for the war (incidentally, Saddam was guilty of genocidal rage against the Kurds, which I believe is reason enough for the UN to have acted).
Here’s the situation now: it’s generally accepted that the reasons Bush gave America to justify the Iraq invasion were false. Ok. But we can’t leave now. First of all, it’s damn near impossible logistically to move troops as quickly as some of the Democratic candidates suggested. Second of all, we fucked that place up. Iraq (which was stable under Saddam) is now in shambles. It’s now our responsibility to help fix it.
We crashed a party, trashed the house and now must help clean it up.
The problem, it seems, is tripartite: a) an ineffective and corrupt Iraqi government, b) Washington’s corruption and cronyism (just one example: giving away key reconstruction jobs to friends and associates rather than the most qualified), and c) the Sunni’s (perhaps rightfully justified) fear of being marginalized within the new government.
Mdrezz, I certainly was not offended– everything I said was tongue-in-cheek, and I really do appreciate your thoughts.
A very astute and insightful analysis, and a compelling argument for maintaining a military presence in Iraq. I completely agree with most of it. While I am obviously outraged by the fact that we invaded Iraq and are in this mess in the first place, I have always felt that it be would be grossly immoral and irresponsible to abandon these people to this theme park from hell we’ve created. It was Powell I think who trotted out the old Pottery Barn Rule first, and in principle it sure made sense to me then. Still does. We definitely broke it, so we ought to pay for it. And we do pay, but is the price realistically bearable? From an economic standpoint, it’s seems pretty untenable in light of the fact that we’ve been reduced to financing this romp by borrowing money from China. And the price in casualties? That’s not something we can sustain for much longer for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that we can’t continue to “recycle” our armed forces. How many consecutive tours of duty are we subjecting our soldiers to? (I’m genuinely asking you) We need to replenish our armed forces, but the recruiting climate is obviously less than ideal and it’s just not politically possible to institute a draft. As a member of the military, I trust you’ll forgive my armchair strategery for the amateur speculation it is, but short of a major infusion of fresh bodies, enough to constitute a force sufficient to the provide blanket coverage needed to pacify Iraq long enough to shore up a physical and institutional infrastructure, I don’t see how we can expect anything short of an extremely protracted engagement with the body count to match. Given this scenario, is it reasonable to sustain these casualty rates indefinitely because we created this mess, when we could pull them out and spare their lives instead? It’s not a decision I’m comfortable with. But I think the case could be made that it’s morally justified to withdraw when it seems we have limited hope of establishing a stable, humanitarian government (for the tripartite reasons you outlined, not to mention the influence of neighbors like Iran and Syria, among other reasons I’m not going to delve into to keep on track). So my beef generally is that we have no reasonable, sensible exit strategy in place at this point. And I think we need one. If that makes me a quitter so be it. If it means more suffering for those we left behind, this is unfortunate at best. If it means we risk ultimately having to return years from now to finish what we should’ve completed the first time, I’m prepared to take that chance. We need a phased withdrawal that is as sensitive to the Iraqi people’s circumstances as can be reasonably expected and makes sense logistically and strategically. As for the point about the tobacco companies, I concede it’s not a perfect comparison, but in principle I think it’s valid. Lastly, I think it’s not terribly difficult to convince the military to keep killing. Propaganda works wonders for starters. Isn’t Rush Limbaugh on Armed Forces Radio? How about Al Franken? But more importantly, the military serve at the pleasure and direction of the President of the United States. I think our soldiers take their constitutional duty quite seriously, and as we’ve seen in Vietnam, even decent men can be compelled to commit unthinkable atrocities under the right circumstances. I’m not saying our troops are committing atrocities, mind you, I’m just saying it would take quite a bit of convincing for most U.S. soldiers to lay down their arms unless ordered to do so by a qualified superior. So I agree and I disagree with you, I think. Either way, you make a very sound case.