December 23, 2009

  • Civil Lights? Do Smokers Have a Right to Smoke Outside?

    “It’s called smokism.  The systematic oppression of a minority, simply because they were born smokers.”  –Stephen Colbert.  Watch, and laugh at the absurdity.  (Click here for an equally funny bonus clip from 1999)

    The city I live in, West Hollywood, California, is considering a ban on smoking at outdoor patios in restaurants and bars.  It’s already illegal to smoke inside any business in California, and it’s becoming the norm in most of the world.  I recognize that my views on this subject may be considered a bit radical and ostensibly selfish.  Some of my best friends (hi Hugo), disagree with me on this subject.  I maintain my position however, as is stated in these Facebook exchanges with fellow Xangan, David.  This all stemmed from a quote by city council member John Duran:

    “People who want to avoid second-hand smoke already have a place to eat, inside the restaurant. So will this stop people from smoking? Or just keep smokers and their friends from coming to West Hollywood? West Hollywood Council Member John Duran


     

    If you saw (if not you should), the movie “Thank Your For Smoking” you know how downright criminal the tobacco industry is.  If you read the New York Times article about tobacco companies actually increasing the amount of nicotine in cigarettes to make people more addicted; then you know how desperate they are.

    Drinking is not a crime.  But if you drink and drive and end up hurting or killing someone you go to jail.  Being overweight is not a crime.  You won’t end up hurting or killing someone if you’re overweight, except yourself.  Smoking is not a crime.  Yet every smoker who smokes in public runs the risk of hurting or killing someone through secondhand smoke.  And let’s not forget about third hand smoke.

    My mother has always smoked.  She smoked in our house the whole time I lived there, despite me being very asthmatic.  The older I’ve gotten, the more allergic I have become to smoke and the more I’ve resented smokers.  If I even get a whiff of it in a hallway or elevator, I feel my lungs begin to tighten.  That’s how bad it is.  Perhaps some of it’s in my head, but who cares?  I have a physical reaction to smoke.

    I understand that tobacco is one of the hardest addictions to curb.  I understand that tobacco lobbyists are still huge political contributors.  I understand that most smokers want to quit.  But the more I have to walk past a building where people are huddled around smoking, the more I begin to hate smokers.  I shouldn’t hate smokers, I should hate smoking.  I know that.  But I’m beginning to hate smokers, and that’s really sad.  It’s going to be something I have to deal with, because I know, like any addiction, people won’t quit until they want to, and I don’t want to hate every smoker I know.

    If you were a smoker, smoking in a public place, and I walked past you fanning my hand in front of my face with a disgusted look; would you be angry at me? Offended? Would you think I was an asshole?  What about if we were both at a restaurant sitting outside where smoking was allowed.  How would you react if  I came over to your table and politely told you that the wind was blowing your smoke towards me and that I’m allergic to smoke and it was really bothering me?  Would you be angry? Offended? Would you think I was an asshole?   


    Here’s a picture I snapped a couple of years ago at a stop light. 
    This repulsive beast was actually smoking, while driving, while talking on her phone with her foot out the window!!
     
    When I snapped the photo she gave me a truly evil glare.  When the light turned green, she put the hand with the cigarette on the wheel and sped away.  Classy.

    I’m writing about this because I’m literally at my wit’s end.  It’s getting to the point where I hate going out to public places that allow smoking.  Here in LA, all of the malls are outdoors.  On a Saturday afternoon it’s like being in a wildfire in the Hollywood Hills!  So, back to the the title of this post.  Is smoking outdoors a civil right?  As defined by Wikipedia civil rights or liberties are:

    …the name given to freedoms that completely protect the individual from government. Civil liberties set limits for government so that it can not abuse its power and interfere with the lives of its citizens. See also civil rights and human rights.

    So, is smoking a civil liberty?  Please weigh in. I’m going to go get my inhaler.

    smoking2smoking2smoking2

    P.S. Here are some photos I took from my roof of the sunset tonight.  All the smoke in the air sure made it pretty! LOL.


    My lens had a smudge on it!

Comments (35)

  • i can’t believe i used to smoke – i find it so disgusting now that i’ve been “clean” for 15+ years now – i can’t believe how bad a smoker stinks!  i can’t believe i used to do that to my friends – make them smell bad too.  we just this past week or so passed a smoking ban in work places!  finally!  and given the amount of taxes on a pack of smokes, a smoker must just love to pay taxes!  peace, Al

  • Smoking is so disgusting. I don’t understand, why would you even start smoking in the first place? You know it’s addicting, then you whine about how you can’t quit. I like what you said there, why should non smokers be forced to eat inside? So, no, I don’t think it’s a civil liberty.

  • I am completely with you on this because I am staunchly against smoking as well. And I think this talk about civil rights is absurd. The government is not stopping you from smoking! You can smoke all you want but inside your house or just get into the car, roll up the windows or whatever and smoke away to death! 

  • that colbert piece is pure gold!  as is the rest of this post. 
    hey carey, think that chick he interviewed is single?  i think she’s kind of sexy.  you know, in a ruddy skin, yellow teethed, physically repulsive kind of way. 

  • Interesting on the ban.  They’re doing something similar like that here on MD campuses.  They’ve already ban smoking at some colleges, which have been getting some attention.  I’m still not sure how I feel about it.  I personally am  not a big fan of smoking, but at the same time I know people are going to smoke anyway.  Hmm..

  • OK, so let me see if I can get this straight.

    A civil liberty is one’s right to exercise their freedom and protects that freedom from the government.

    Smoking increases one’s health problems exponentially, causing disease and long-term health care problems.

    Medical bills are expensive.

    When that person becomes ill and no longer has the financial means to pay for their care, who do they want to foot the bill?

    The government.

    And people think non-smokers are selfish?

    Personally, I don’t mind people who smoke unless the smoke is blowing directly into my face. In fact, I smoked when I was in college, and even then, I knew I looked gross and idiotic. I don’t harbor any ill will towards people who smoke; I just hope they’re able to stop before the effects of it catch up to them, and it’s too late.

    I would support a smoking ban just as much as I support the talking/texting ban while driving. I support pretty much anything that significantly increases a person’s chance for a better life.

  • I did not read this entire (loooong) post, but I have to disagree entirely. The “third-hand smoke” sounds like a sick joke. Sorry, it’s just ridiculous. What’s next? If I LOOK at someone after smoking a cig I could make them ill? Give me a break.

    Ever watched Penn & Teller’s Bullshit episode on smoking? 

  • @Unstoppable_Inner_Strength - hector, if there were no cigarette particles or smoke residue left behind in rooms and on clothing, hair, etc. they wouldn’t still smell like the tobacco smoke.  it’s simple logic.  you smoke?

  • @curtainsopen - Yes, I smoke on ocassion. I’m not denying there aren’t particles on you, as one obviuosly can smell of cigarette smoke after smoking. But, to argue that such a meager thing can cause illness is ludicrious. It might be unpleasant. Hell, it might cause a sneeze or some slight discomfort if there’s a very susceptible person around you (for example, someone with bad allergies, asthma, or a cold/flu.)  But can the slight traces of smoke particles left on your clothes and hair that make you smell like cigarette smoke MAKE someone else ill, maybe even deathly ill?  That’s bullshit. Sorry.

  • @Unstoppable_Inner_Strength - i think i’ll defer to scientific studies and data.

  • Just because it’s legal to smoke at outside seating doesn’t mean that every table is going to be packed full of chain smokers. And yes, while many smokers are inconsiderate with blowing their smoke around (sometimes you don’t notice, you forget you’re even doing it), if it really bothers you it doesn’t hurt to ask, “Can you please move/blow that somewhere else/etc.?” It’s annoying, but ok, we get it, the majority of the world doesn’t like smoking. Most smoking-friendly restaurants here in the Bay Area that I’ve been to segregate the outside seating, what about that for an option?

  • When we travel across the country and wind up in an area with lax smoking laws it really makes us appreciate the strict non-smoking laws in our state.  Great post!

  • @curtainsopen - How many studies have been conducted on this, by different, unconnected parties? And hopefully, not by the crazy scare-tactic/fear-mongering anti-smoking lunatics that are out there. You gotta admit, there’s groups out there hell-bent on eradicating smoking at all costs, and there have been bogus studies set up and rigged to arrive at their desired conclusions. So, unless there’s mountains of evidence that has been verified by multiple independent sources, I’m gonna call it bullcrap.

  • @ChocolateCoveredKittens - If restaurants had separate areas outside – one for smokers / one for nonsmokers – and they were far enough apart that the smoke didn’t reach the nonsmoking section, I think I would be okay with that.  However, most restaurants don’t have the luxury of an outside space large enough for that kind of setup.

  • http://reason.com/blog/2009/01/06/thirdhand-smoke-alarm

    There seems to be very little in the way of actual research on this “third-hand smoke” hooey. The kind of research necessary to unequivocally establish a direct correlation between your somewhat smelly clothes and the deterioration of the health of those around you just because of that.  Hmmm…

  • @CareyGLY - http://reason.com/blog/2009/01/06/thirdhand-smoke-alarm

    Here’s a section from a comment on that article:

    …if “third hand smoke” is dangerous, than anyone who has been around cars, barbecue grills, household cleaners, a painting site or a recently painted area, a farm or lawn, etc. is also dragging “poisonous” third hand smoke with them.

    I bet if you mapped the pathways of all the people who have come into contact with some amount of “dangerous chemicals” who have detectable trace amounts on their hair or clothes, you’d end up with overlapping “terror zones” that cover every area of human habitation in the world.

    Ubquitous danger isn’t actually danger at all.

    Nope. You’re not gonna convince me, unless, again, there is enough conclusive, scientific evidence.

  • @Unstoppable_Inner_Strength - Yeah, I read it, and it doesn’t fly with me.  The bottom line is that smoking is a choice people make that kills other people.  That’s not right.  We’re going to have to agree to disagree.  Merry Christmas!

  • @pukemeister - Congratulations on quitting!
    @GloomySunday1 - Thanks for the feedback.  I couldn’t agree more.
    @Dezinerdreams - Thanks Vivek…I’m glad you agree.
    @curtainsopen - Don’t worry….I’ll hook you up.  And if that doesn’t work out, I just added a photo to this post I took a few years ago of a girl you might like.  LOL
    @Roadlesstaken - Wasn’t it Maryland that was trying to ban people smoking in their cars with the windows open??  LOL, I love it!
    @wherethefishlives - Thanks Sam…I’ve used that argument too, but the radical smokers turn it around and say that if you’re overweight you strain the entire health care system, and end up making thin people pay for your health care.  Ugh. Another reason for universal health care!
    @Unstoppable_Inner_Strength - With all due respect, how could comment on a post if you don’t even take the time to read it because it’s too long?  It’s not even longer than the average newspaper article in the New York Times.  And it would equal about 2 pages of a book.  How can you refute arguments you haven’t read?  That said, I will look up the Penn & Teller episode.  The science on third hand smoke exists, but it exists on climate change too, and there are still people who don’t believe in that.  I doubt I’m going to change your mind, especially in light of your profile picture.  LOL
    @Unstoppable_Inner_Strength - BTW, they’ve done scans on lungs of toddlers who live in apartment building in New York, whose parents are non-smokers.  Guess what they found in their lungs?  Let me know if you want and curtainsopen want to double date the girl whose photo I just added to this post!
    @ChocolateCoveredKittens - I’ve found that here, where space is at a premium , the seating segregation doesn’t work.  And again, it all depends on the direction of the wind.  I wish I wasn’t as sensitive to it, but I am, and I can’t be around it, which ruins a lot of meals.
    @ItsWhatEyeKnow - Thanks for reading and stopping by.  Happy Holidays.

  • @CareyGLY - Kills *other* people? Yeah, agree to disagree it is.   // I don’t celebrate that holiday, but thanks anyway.

  • Here goes…

    Full disclosure: I smoke. And Carey is right. The civil rights argument is totally specious. Endangering someone’s health without their consent is not a civil right. There is ample, irrefutable scientific evidence that second-hand smoke poses serious health risks. End of story. This is not a civil rights issue; it is a matter of public health policy.

    Here in Chicago, our ban covers all indoor areas as well as all outdoor restaurant seating and most bar patios. Initially, I thought the bar patio restriction was excessive, but I can appreciate the point.

    For example: remember the days when restaurants had smoking and non-smoking sections (yes, I was born in the 70s)? The absurdity of it! Here you are tucking into a sandwich and the only thing separating you from a table of people smoking a few feet away in an enclosed space is maybe a velvet rope or partial barrier. It does nothing to insulate you from second-hand smoke. (The funny thing was even back then, THE SMOKING SECTION HAD RESTRICTIONS AGAINST PIPES AND CIGARS! Why? Cigarette SMOKERS found the smell offensive!)

    The same principal holds true with restaurant patios. The smoke travels with the wind. It does not magically disappear straight up into the stratosphere as many outdoor smoking advocates would have you believe. And even if — for argument’s sake — the breeze sufficiently diluted the smoke to the point where it posed negligible health risk to someone a few tables over, the acrid scent is unpleasant at best, and people should not have to be subjected to it while dining or sitting on the lawn at an open air concert, or in the stands at a ballgame, etc.

    Part of the problem is simple behavior modification. I smoke. Yet I’m now so accustomed to not smoking indoors that to see ashtrays on tables in restaurants, or outside an elevator (as I did last time I was in Las Vegas) seems really bizarre, almost appalling. It’s really not such an inconvenience once you just get used to it. And if I were ever to find myself on an airplane with an ashtray in the armrest, that plane is not taking off with me on it. :)

    There are sensible limits, however. Banning people from smoking — be it a cigarette, cigar or pipe — while walking down a sidewalk seems a little draconian. But guess what? I can’t think of any logical argument to oppose such an ordinance, because there quite simply isn’t one. It would be sound public health policy. (I’m picturing Carey standing at a bus stop gasping for air because he’s standing down wind of someone smoking. While his theatrics would probably amuse me, I’m hardly qualified to gauge whether or not his coughing and wheezing are grossly exaggerated for effect or genuine.)

    One alternative to a blanket ban that I do think would be worth considering is to license a limited number of establishments (bars only) to permit smoking. This gives people an option. If most of my friends do not smoke, and they choose to go to a smoke-free bar on a Saturday, I’m going to join them. But I would wager that the bars with smoking permits would generally do more business. It would be an interesting experiment in free-market capitalism.

    That said, the bottom line is that there are no redeeming qualities to smoking. With the clear exception of that sexy temptress in the Colbert video, smoking is not glamorous. It stains your teeth, makes you smell, ruins your skin, causes innumerable diseases, affects the health of those around you, and it’s costly both to the smoker and to society (taxpayers spend millions to subsidize treatment of smoking-related illnesses). Smoking should frankly be illegal. This is coming from a smoker!

    Of course, the same goes for alcohol and fattening foods, but we know how well that sort of prohibition works. Still smoking is the only one of these health hazards that also affects the health of innocent third-parties (except for drunk driving, which is already illegal).

    So let’s cut the crap. Even the people who smoke and who are so outraged at the loss of their “personal freedom” to smoke in public places (guaranteed in the Bill of Rights, to be sure) probably do not even smoke in their OWN homes.

    At 6a.m. this morning I put on my parka, boots and stocking hat, and stood in my pajamas outside on a balcony nine stories up with a 15-degree windchill (it was also sleeting) to smoke a cigarette because we don’t want to stink up our home. I’ll risk pneumonia before I’ll smoke in my own home. Now if that isn’t the height of absurdity, tell me what is?

    Maybe I’ll just spare myself the hassle and quit?

  • @pukemeister - @GloomySunday1 - @Dezinerdreams - @Unstoppable_Inner_Strength - @curtainsopen - @Roadlesstaken - @wherethefishlives - @ChocolateCoveredKittens - @ItsWhatEyeKnow -
    @mdrezz - I know it’s long (sorry Unstoppable IS) but Marc’s (mdrezz) response above is well worth the read.  I’ve know him for nearly 20 years and he’s about the smartest person I know.  He’s also a smoker.  “That said, the bottom line is that there are
    no redeeming qualities to smoking. With the clear exception of that
    sexy temptress in the Colbert video, smoking is not glamorous. It
    stains your teeth, makes you smell, ruins your skin, causes innumerable
    diseases, affects the health of those around you, and it’s costly both
    to the smoker and to society (taxpayers spend millions to subsidize
    treatment of smoking-related illnesses). Smoking should frankly be
    illegal. This is coming from a smoker!”  Brilliant!  You never cease to amaze me Marc!

  • GO CANADA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Yeah here we have HUGE bans on smoking. Everywhere indoors is banned from smoking – you can only do it outdoors.  And because of this heavy ban on smoking, people can and WILL (especially me) give you a dirty ass look if your fuckin’ smoke comes my way.  Total ignorance.  And if they’re offended, they can kiss my white ass.  I have a right to breathe clean air that won’t hurt me, and we already have enough industrial pollution, we could sure as hell use less of people puffing on their cancer sticks.

  • @haloed - Let’s here it for Canada!!  Thanks for stopping by!

  • @mdrezz - I wish I could REC your comment!!!! You’re such a considerate person, and you lay it out so nicely, especially coming from a smoker!

  • Hahha.

    Carey, and others, all you guys are saying is, “I also don’t want to be inconvenienced by the decisions of others and have to choose where I go.” THIS IS NOT JUSTIFICATION FOR VIOLATING INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS. I’m sorry, but you guys have no grasp of the essential issue here. The government’s role is not to cater to your individual conveniences and preferences. There are other people who have different preferences. 

    And all these places are PRIVATE PROPERTY. Translated, that means SOME INDIVIDUAL other than yourself OWNS IT. You have no right to it. You have no right to tell them how to run it. All you can do is vote with your patronage. If you don’t like smokers, it’ll show in their business profits. And they’ll make a change, if they want to stay in business.  but using the government to adhere to you own personal preferences is both IMMORAL and WRONG. I just don’t see why you guys feel ENTITLED to this. I don’t like smoke any more than you guys. But there are principles and freedoms which are more important than your personal convenience. If LA is such an outdoor eating environment then there should be PLENTY of choices and PLENTY of non-smoking choices. And if not, sorry, but the customers have spoken. The market is about individuals making voluntary choices. And you using the government to dictate your preference on everyone else is WRONG. period.

    And the key argument you guys are using is that smoking is a violation of PUBLIC health. Sorry, but these establishments are PRIVATE property. If the government wants to ban smoking from public parks and government-owned land. So be it. But that argument doesn’t apply when you’re on private property. Simple as that.

  • I smoke…. so tie me up to a pole and burn me whole.

  • @free2chuze - This isn’t about tying people up!  It’s about health and the right to breathe clean air.  I’ve been to your country, and I could honestly never live there with the lax laws on smoking.  That said, I love the people and you’re still welcome at The Hotel Careyfornia anytime!  (You just have to smoke on the balcony!) 

  • @haloed - Thanks for the kind words, although your last sentence struck me as a tad condescending. 

  • @davidngo - @mdrezz - Did you see David’s response above Marc?  (Davidngo).  You two would have a field day! xo

  • @davidngo - Theoretically, I completely agree. I was not at all pleased when Chicago and my beloved NY were forced into smoke-freedomness. That’s what licenses are for. If private establishments must have a license serve liquor, then why not allow those same establishments to have a smoking license? Let the patrons decide. As you pointed out, if people don’t want to go to a smoke-filled bar, well then surely there is a business opportunity for bars that have a non-smoking policy, right? Totally agree. But I think this issue is not so clear cut. Is it also ok to have crack bars? Should the government regulate health-related issues, or should people be entirely free to do as they please? Maybe we don’t need an FDA? If I want to sell children’s toys made with lead paint, and there’s a market for them, why should the government interfere?

  • @mdrezz - Ooooh!  I guess you did!  Let the games begin.  Ho Ho Ho!

  • My mom smoked while pregnant with me and my twin brother, and my two younger brothers. I’ve grown up around it, and it doesn’t bother me much. My boyfriend smokes (I don’t), and I hate the fact that soon, he won’t be allowed to smoke anywhere when we go out to eat. It doesn’t seem entirely fair. Yeah, it’s not good for him and he should quit, but he hasn’t yet. He’ll quit eventually, I’ll wear him down. :/

    (By the way, smoking is allowed in my house. We just let the windows open during the day a lot and keep the house clean so it doesn’t smell. It’s not some putrid stench, like cat piss. Sheesh.

    Still, smokers have a right to have a cigarette outside, as well. Most that I know try to blow their smoke away from others anyway. I’m sure there are worse things in the air to be worried about. I’m pretty healthy, too, I’ve never had any major health issues. Maybe my lungs are just stronger, but I am used to second-hand smoke.
    What if I were to say, hypothetically, that I think people wear way too much perfume/cologne, and that bothers my nose and makes me cough sometimes…let’s ban that too, why the hell not? Yeah, they’re two different things, but I want the whole world to bend over just for me, too.

    I see your point. You’re sensitive, you have asthma or whatever. Yet I remain unconvinced by your post, which also seems to characterize smokers as stupid drivers who are “repulsive beasts.” My boyfriend and family are not repulsive beasts. The woman has just as much right to smoke in her car as that asshole next door to me does to drive his ugly Escalade around, which gives off fumes that would probably bother you just as much too. I think there should be smoking areas designated outside, and cigarettes should continue to be taxed. Here, in Dallas, they’ve gone up a lot recently this year.

    Alright, now I prepare to be flamed. I sit here armed with a pack of Turkish Royals, however, and am prepared to puff it in your general direction. Stay back or I’ll poison your lungs.

    (I don’t even smoke!)

  • @blackspiders - I won’t flame you.  I appreciate you taking the time to read this and reply, even though I obviously don’t agree with most of it.  The repulsive beast thing was just my general sexism against women drivers.  I admit it.  When they smoke they’re even worse….and when you add talking on a cell phone with your foot out the window; my brain explodes.  Interesting points about the perfume but it’s a pretty rare problem.  I still maintain that no one has the right to smoke where it can affect other people.  Anyway, thanks for adding to the debate.  Merry Christmas!

  • A fast food restaurant is nothing without a cheese burger and french
    fries. A men is nothing without his pack of cigarettes and a pill of Cheap Viagra, that is a
    rule
    for everyone. I don’t know why people overly complicate their lives
    about people who smoke in indoor places or outdoor places.

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